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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

shiftless2 wrote:

quote:

bricklayer wrote:

... keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable.



So far the only thing this administration has done with respect to this is making it easier for the mentally ill to obtain guns.




Serious question. How so?

10/6/2017, 3:00 pm Link to this post PM bricklayer
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

Miz Robbie wrote:

quote:

bigbarry2u wrote:

It's highly insulting to state that "shooting children is bearable".




Well, that was a meme that nobody here created, but was only re-posted.

That said, what the meme conveys is that no significant gun legislation was enacted after Sandy Hook. To many of us, that means the horror of murdered children wasn't sufficient to cause anything to happen that would prevent such a thing from happening again.

As an aside... that shooting happened in mid-December. As a parent, I know that some of my child's Christmas presents would have been purchased by then, hidden on the top shelf of the linen closet, behind some old towels.

That shooting made me reflect on parents who had to go home to hidden Christmas presents for a child they would no longer have with them to celebrate the holiday. And it makes me cry every time I think of it.

And nothing happened as a result.



Amen, Robbie. The ONLY thing that resulted from twenty dead children and six dead staff members was an uptick in gun sales to those who were terrified their guns would be taken. Grieving parents were patted on the back and told that gee, it was just too important to make sure that other people had access to their guns of choice. I found the displays absolutely sickening. I can't imagine how the parents and siblings made it through that holiday season.

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10/6/2017, 6:06 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


The grieving parents got thoughts and prayers and a moment of silence.

And then they went home to a lifetime of silence from their dead children.

That one still makes me cry.

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10/6/2017, 6:13 pm Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

bigbarry2u wrote:

It's highly insulting to state that "shooting children is bearable".



It's far MORE insulting to hear Republican voices insisting that the mass shooting of 58 people is "the price of freedom."

Bill O'Reilly: “This is the price of freedom. Violent nuts are allowed to roam free until they do damage, no matter how threatening they are."

So the right of gun nuts to keep weapons whose only purpose is to hunt people is more important than the right of innocent people to live. Got it.

quote:

And by extension, highly arrogant or dismissive to think that if your side got its way, things like Sandy Hook would not happen.



Only those opposed to gun control make such a ridiculous claim, Bob. No one who wants reasonable gun control says that gun control would prevent all acts of gun violence. We do, however, argue that it would REDUCE the amount of gun violence, gun deaths, and gun suicides.

quote:

It's hard to engage in debate when someone throws down a claim one side is ok with shooting children.



It's even more frustrating to engage in debate when someone throws down a false claim about the other side's argument, and then argues against that false claim. It's hard to engage with those who are spinning in circular arguments with themselves.

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10/6/2017, 6:22 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

JustLis wrote:

quote:

Miz Robbie wrote:

quote:

bigbarry2u wrote:

It's highly insulting to state that "shooting children is bearable".




Well, that was a meme that nobody here created, but was only re-posted.

That said, what the meme conveys is that no significant gun legislation was enacted after Sandy Hook. To many of us, that means the horror of murdered children wasn't sufficient to cause anything to happen that would prevent such a thing from happening again.

As an aside... that shooting happened in mid-December. As a parent, I know that some of my child's Christmas presents would have been purchased by then, hidden on the top shelf of the linen closet, behind some old towels.

That shooting made me reflect on parents who had to go home to hidden Christmas presents for a child they would no longer have with them to celebrate the holiday. And it makes me cry every time I think of it.

And nothing happened as a result.



Amen, Robbie. The ONLY thing that resulted from twenty dead children and six dead staff members was an uptick in gun sales to those who were terrified their guns would be taken. Grieving parents were patted on the back and told that gee, it was just too important to make sure that other people had access to their guns of choice. I found the displays absolutely sickening. I can't imagine how the parents and siblings made it through that holiday season.



I've said earlier that a larger problem is mental illness and the lack of attention from government. I'll ask you what laws you would support that could possibly for sure prevent another Sandy Hook.
10/6/2017, 6:46 pm Link to this post PM CooterBrown44
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

bigbarry2u wrote:

My friends on the left presume legislation could have prevented such a tragedy or the next one. I wonder, what legislation could have been passed to prevent Sandy Hook?

Or even Las Vegas?



Your friends on the left presume legislation could prevent SOME tragedies. Not all. You on the right keep trying to stuff words into our mouths and then argue against the very words YOU put there. Not playing that game.

quote:

Even outlawing the "bump stocks" which I am okay with, btw, does not prevent a madman from getting them and using them.



But the sooner they are outlawed, the fewer there will be out there. And RESPONSIBLE, LAW-ABIDING gun owners (the ones you on the right keep referring to) will destroy the ones they have, right? Being law-abiding citizens. And then the criminals can't steal them from their homes. And they can't be traded at gun shows. And they can't be mass produced and ordered on the internet from law-abiding dealers.

quote:

But it is horrific to claim that people accept the deaths of children as bearable in order to advance their flawed political agenda. It is arrogant, smug, and wrong.



Bob, the more I read people on the right cautiously saying "That's awful" out of one side of their mouths, and from the other side instantly screeching "THIS IS NOT THE TIME TO TALK ABOUT GUN CONTROL!!!" and running to the nearest gun store to stock up out of paranoia, the more I have to actually question how genuine their concern is for the victims of gun violence. THEIR insistence that the rights of gun owners are more important than the rights of gun violence victims is arrogant, smug, and wrong.

quote:

Monsters exist. Evil exists. We can not legislate that away.



But we certainly can take steps to take the most destructive weapons out of the hands of those monsters. Or we can stand by and continue to watch the slaughter of innocent victims and then blame the victims themselves for not "getting small." Yeah, that was GOP Senator John Thune.

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10/6/2017, 8:17 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

CooterBrown44 wrote:

Here we go again. It's the AR-15 which did it, even though a plethora of other semi-automatic rifles could have accomplished the same thing.



Except gosh, Cooter, those mass murderers just keep reaching for that same gun time and time again. I wonder why that is. Hmmmmmm....

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Lis

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10/6/2017, 8:18 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

Bellelettres wrote:

So what is the use of having any laws at all, since people are going to commit crimes anyway?



And THAT is the bottom line, Belle. The right-wing mantra, taken to its logical conclusion.

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10/6/2017, 8:23 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

shiftless2 wrote:

quote:

bigbarry2u wrote:
Monsters exist. Evil exists. We can not legislate that away.



On that basis you don't object to Kim Jong Un obtaining nuclear weapons? After all, you can't legislate people like him away so why try to restrict his access to nuclear weapons?



Not to mention, aren't nations supposed to be entirely sovereign? What authority do we have, telling another nation what to do in order to defend itself? If our Republican leaders are too focused on the rights of those citizens with the biggest weapons, then certainly they should afford other nations those same rights to "defend" themselves.

(And seriously, point me to any RATIONAL owner of an AR-15 with 30-bullet clips who keeps it by the bedside for "protection").

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10/6/2017, 8:28 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

shiftless2 wrote:

They did find a compelling trend whereby new restrictions on gun purchasing and ownership tended to be followed by a decline in gun deaths.



Thanks for finding actual research, Shiftless. In a post-factual Republican Party, I doubt actual facts and research by experts will make any difference. But I appreciate what you found.

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10/6/2017, 8:31 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

CooterBrown44 wrote:

How about the cities in the U. S. with strict gun control laws, and how about the gangs? I don't think they abide by any laws when it coms to firearms.



The cities with strict gun control laws? The ones that strengthened their gun control laws in order to deal with crime? And whose efforts were stripped by the Supreme Court at the bidding of the NRA and Republican leaders? THOSE cities?

Gee, I don't know, Cooter. Are all of those extra guns in the cities now making everyone safer? Because, ya know, we keep hearing that having more and more and more guns in people's hands will make EVERYONE safer....

How's that working out?

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10/6/2017, 8:36 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

bigbarry2u wrote:

Laws don't prevent crime. Fear of prison prevents crime, for those of us that are capable of making that risk-vs-reward assessment.

Irrational madmen don't care whether there is a law or not.



I'll pass right by the fact that if there weren't a law prohibiting it, the action would not be criminal in the first place.

Laws DON'T prevent crime? You're kidding, right? Most people obey the laws because they ARE the laws. I don't stride into my credit union with a gun, assessing risks and rewards to determine whether to rob the place. The vast majority of us wouldn't even THINK about robbing an establishment because it IS a crime. Laws DO prevent a heck of a lot of crime because they set the parameters for society. I don't do the right thing because I'm scared of prison; I do the right thing because it IS the right thing. That is how most of us in society operate.

You're right that irrational madmen don't care what's legal and what's not. So let's make an attempt to keep the most dangerous weapons out of the madman's hands in the first place. If he's standing there with a six-shooter, he's going to do a whole lot less damage than was done in Las Vegas.

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10/6/2017, 8:44 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

bricklayer wrote:

quote:

CooterBrown44 wrote:

How about the cities in the U. S. with strict gun control laws, and how about the gangs? I don't think they abide by any laws when it coms to firearms.



They don't abide by laws against murder, battery, or larceny either. So why have them? What would the cities with strict laws look like if they weren't on the books? That's an unanswerable rhetorical question.

It seems we look at some laws as deterrents while how many crimes are not committed because of them is unknowable, but that reasoning apparently doesn't apply to gun control laws. Why not?



Exactly, Brick. Exactly.

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Lis

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10/6/2017, 8:45 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

Miz Robbie wrote:

The grieving parents got thoughts and prayers and a moment of silence.

And then they went home to a lifetime of silence from their dead children.

That one still makes me cry.



Me, too, Robbie.
10/6/2017, 9:25 pm Link to this post PM MsSusieQueue
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

bigbarry2u wrote:

Sorry, brick, I was referring to the graphic about the "idiots" that did not pass "reasonable" gun legislation. The implication is that new legislation was necessary in order to prevent future school shootings. Yet there have been no further school shootings.

Now, why is that? We didn't pass any new laws. How is it possible that there have not been any more mass shootings without new legislation?



Ummmmmmmmm, Bob? Are you freaking kidding me?

Umpqua Community College - 2015 - 9 dead, 9 injured

University of California-Santa Barbara - 2014 - 6 dead, 14 injured

Santa Monica College - 2013 - 5 dead, 2 injured

Marysville Pilchuck High School - 2014 - 4 dead, 3 injured

Hazard Community and Technical College - 2013 - 3 dead, 0 injured

And those were just the "mass" murders. How about all of these school shootings that resulted in death and injury after Sandy Hook:

2013:
Apostolic Revival Center Christian School
Taft Union High School
Osborn High School
Stevens Institute of Business and Arts
Chicago State University
Lone Star College
Price Middle School
University of Central Florida
New River Community College
Grambling State University
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
North Panola High School
Carver High School
Agape Christian Academy
Sparks Middle School
North Carolina A&T State University
Stephenson High School
Brashear High School
West Orange High School
Arapahoe High School
Edison High School

2014:
Liberty Technology Magnet High School
Hillhouse High School
Berrendo Middle School
Delaware Valley Charter School
Widener University
Purdue University
South Carolina State University
Los Angeles Valley College
Rebound High School
Tennessee State University
Eastern Florida State College
North High School
Salisbury High School
University of Southern California
Georgia Regents University
Academy of Knowledge Preschool
East English Village Preparatory Academy
Paine College
Georgia Gwinnett College
John F. Kennedy High School
Seattle Pacific University
Reynolds High School
Indiana State University
Albemarle High School
Fern Creek Traditional High School
Langston Hughes High School
Florida State University
Miami Carol City High School
Rogers State University
Rosemary Anderson High School

2015:
Wisconsin Lutheran High School
Frederick High School
Tenaya Middle School
Bethune-Cookman University
Pershing Elementary School
Wayne Community College
J.B. Martin Middle School
Southwestern Classical Academy
Savannah State University
Sacramento City College
Delta State University
Harrisburg High School
Northern Arizona University
Texas Southern University
Tennessee State University
Winston-Salem State University
Mojave High School

2016:
Lawrence Central High School
Muskegon Heights High School
Independence High School
Madison High School
Antigo High School
University of California-Los Angeles
Jeremiah Burke High School
Alpine High School
Townville Elementary School
Vigor High School
Linden McKinley STEM Academy
Jordan High School for Equity
Union Middle School

2017:
West Liberty-Salem High School
University of Washington
North Park Elementary School
North Lake College
Freeman High School
Matoon High School

The Matoon High School shooting was only two weeks ago. A 14-year-old male student fired multiple shots at students in the cafeteria before being subdued by a female teacher. One student, shot in the chest, thank heavens survived.

Now, what was it you asked?

How is it possible that there have not been any more mass shootings without new legislation?

When you start your side of the debate woefully unaware of the facts, it makes everything else you argue suspect.

Last edited by JustLis, 10/6/2017, 9:33 pm


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10/6/2017, 9:31 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

bricklayer wrote:

quote:

bigbarry2u wrote:

quote:

Miz Robbie wrote:
But geezy peezy, can't we talk about what might reduce the gun violence in this country?




YES!!! Let's do that. But maybe we can do it in a way that does not assert one side doesn't care about gun deaths?

Anyway, what are the key parameters that we might be able to adjust in order to reduce gun violence?

- Supply of guns
- Types of guns
- Trustworthiness of gun owners
- Harsher penalties for unsafe or illegal use of guns
- Accessories that make guns less safe/more violent
- Accessories that make guns more safe/less violent
- Education / Certification
- Registration

Maybe there are others? What would you add to the list?

And of these, anyone, which ones do you think would leave to improvement in our current reality?



Background checks, cooling off periods, holding gun show sales and private sales to the same legal standards that gun stores adhere to, limiting the size of magazines, and keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally unstable.

I think that every idea that you listed might reduce gun violence in today's world. I believe the same about my suggestions. Might. Doing nothing will not.




Yes, yes, yes, both Bob and Brick!

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10/6/2017, 9:36 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

bricklayer wrote:

quote:

shiftless2 wrote:

So far the only thing this administration has done with respect to this is making it easier for the mentally ill to obtain guns.



Serious question. How so?



(Washington Times) - Congress on Wednesday approved the first gun rights bill of the new Republican-controlled Washington, voting to erase an Obama administration regulation that would have forced Social Security to scour its lists and report some of its beneficiaries to the firearms no-buy list....

If President Trump signs the bill into law as expected, it will expunge a last-minute change by the Obama administration designed to add more mental health records to the national background check system that is meant to keep criminals and unstable people from obtaining weapons. The previous administration had proposed requiring Social Security to search its records and report people receiving disability benefits or supplemental income payments and who had someone else managing their finances, deeming them “mental defectives” who shouldn’t be able to buy firearms....

Democrats said the Social Security gun rule was carefully tailored so that only people who were so incapacitated that they had someone else receive their payments for them would be considered.


Because, you see, it is FAR more important to put guns in the hands of people whose mental capacity is so far diminished that they cannot handle their own money...than to protect their potential victims.

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10/6/2017, 9:46 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

CooterBrown44 wrote:
I've said earlier that a larger problem is mental illness and the lack of attention from government. I'll ask you what laws you would support that could possibly for sure prevent another Sandy Hook.



Well, Republicans paid a lot of attention to making sure that the mentally ill on Social Security disability have access to guns, so I guess that solves what you see as the two larger problems.

And again you're back with the "FOR SURE prevent another Sandy Hook."

Nothing, Cooter. Nothing at all will FOR SURE prevent another Sandy Hook. So let's just legalize everything, put a gun in the hand of everyone old enough to hold one so we'll all be so much safer, and then "send our thoughts and prayers" to everyone who is killed in the melee.

Sounds like a rational solution to what Republicans see as no problem at all.

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10/6/2017, 9:52 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Yet Another Guns Thread


quote:

JustLis wrote:

quote:

bigbarry2u wrote:

Sorry, brick, I was referring to the graphic about the "idiots" that did not pass "reasonable" gun legislation. The implication is that new legislation was necessary in order to prevent future school shootings. Yet there have been no further school shootings.

Now, why is that? We didn't pass any new laws. How is it possible that there have not been any more mass shootings without new legislation?



Ummmmmmmmm, Bob? Are you freaking kidding me?

Umpqua Community College - 2015 - 9 dead, 9 injured

University of California-Santa Barbara - 2014 - 6 dead, 14 injured

Santa Monica College - 2013 - 5 dead, 2 injured

Marysville Pilchuck High School - 2014 - 4 dead, 3 injured

Hazard Community and Technical College - 2013 - 3 dead, 0 injured

And those were just the "mass" murders. How about all of these school shootings that resulted in death and injury after Sandy Hook:

2013:
Apostolic Revival Center Christian School
Taft Union High School
Osborn High School
Stevens Institute of Business and Arts
Chicago State University
Lone Star College
Price Middle School
University of Central Florida
New River Community College
Grambling State University
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
North Panola High School
Carver High School
Agape Christian Academy
Sparks Middle School
North Carolina A&T State University
Stephenson High School
Brashear High School
West Orange High School
Arapahoe High School
Edison High School

2014:
Liberty Technology Magnet High School
Hillhouse High School
Berrendo Middle School
Delaware Valley Charter School
Widener University
Purdue University
South Carolina State University
Los Angeles Valley College
Rebound High School
Tennessee State University
Eastern Florida State College
North High School
Salisbury High School
University of Southern California
Georgia Regents University
Academy of Knowledge Preschool
East English Village Preparatory Academy
Paine College
Georgia Gwinnett College
John F. Kennedy High School
Seattle Pacific University
Reynolds High School
Indiana State University
Albemarle High School
Fern Creek Traditional High School
Langston Hughes High School
Florida State University
Miami Carol City High School
Rogers State University
Rosemary Anderson High School

2015:
Wisconsin Lutheran High School
Frederick High School
Tenaya Middle School
Bethune-Cookman University
Pershing Elementary School
Wayne Community College
J.B. Martin Middle School
Southwestern Classical Academy
Savannah State University
Sacramento City College
Delta State University
Harrisburg High School
Northern Arizona University
Texas Southern University
Tennessee State University
Winston-Salem State University
Mojave High School

2016:
Lawrence Central High School
Muskegon Heights High School
Independence High School
Madison High School
Antigo High School
University of California-Los Angeles
Jeremiah Burke High School
Alpine High School
Townville Elementary School
Vigor High School
Linden McKinley STEM Academy
Jordan High School for Equity
Union Middle School

2017:
West Liberty-Salem High School
University of Washington
North Park Elementary School
North Lake College
Freeman High School
Matoon High School

The Matoon High School shooting was only two weeks ago. A 14-year-old male student fired multiple shots at students in the cafeteria before being subdued by a female teacher. One student, shot in the chest, thank heavens survived.

Now, what was it you asked?

How is it possible that there have not been any more mass shootings without new legislation?

When you start your side of the debate woefully unaware of the facts, it makes everything else you argue suspect.



I was in a hurry. What I meant to do was match the inane character of the original poster and say "mass shootings at elementary schools".

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10/6/2017, 11:19 pm Link to this post PM bigbarry2u
 
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quote:

bigbarry2u wrote:
I was in a hurry. What I meant to do was match the inane character of the original poster and say "mass shootings at elementary schools".



Because...murders of only elementary school children matter?

There are elementary schools in that list, too, Bob.

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Lis

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10/6/2017, 11:23 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 


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