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JustLis Profile
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Re: Religion


(CNN) - An Archbishop told a Jesuit school to fire a gay teacher. They said no

A Jesuit high school in Indiana can no longer call itself "Catholic" because it employs a teacher engaged in a same-sex marriage, the Archbishop of Indianapolis says.

Archbishop Charles Thompson's decree, dated June 21, means that Brebeuf Jesuit Preparatory School in Indianapolis will no longer be recognized or identified as a Catholic institution within the archdiocese.

Thompson said the church considers Catholic school teachers to be "ministers" of the faith. "To effectively bear witness to Christ, whether they teach religion or not, all ministers in their professional and private lives must convey and be supportive of Catholic Church teaching," the Archdiocese of Indiana said in a statement on Thursday.

The Archdiocese said they tried but failed to reach an agreement with the Jesuit school.



Good for them! Brebeuf isn't just any Catholic high school. Their tuition alone is $18,300 a year, and additional fees are about $4,700 per year -- plus an additional $500 per sport you want to join.

Roncalli High School (which runs about half the tuition and fees) had a similar incident last year, when they fired a guidance counselor who married another woman. Apparently it was just fine with administrators as long as they just lived together (in sin?), but marriage brings a firing.

The Brebeuf students tonight said that they'll support the Roncalli students in trying to get their guidance counselor reinstated.

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Lis

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6/21/2019, 10:22 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Religion


Good for Brebeuf Jesuit Prepatory School.

As I've said before, I remember when we left-handers were forced to change, and that continued in the Catholic schools long after the public schools had stopped doing it. The "reasoning" was that the Devil sat on God's left hand, which made that hand evil, not to mention gauche and sinister.

The Catholic Church's attitude toward LGBT students and staff is just their latest updated bigotry.

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6/22/2019, 12:13 am Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Re: Religion


And...Cathedral High School in Indianapolis just fired one of its teachers tonight because he married his boyfriend.

All because they were afraid of losing their non-profit status and their ability to serve eucharist if they were cut from the Catholic Church.

Doesn't seem to have affected Roncalli any.

Meanwhile, the guidance counselor fired by Roncalli High School was speaking tonight, and the news showed a clip of her saying "Love thy neighbor" didn't list any boundaries.

True.

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Lis

Just one voice.... Singing in the darkness....
6/23/2019, 10:06 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Religion


The Jesuits have always been the renegades of the Catholic Church. Not only have they historically marched to their own d rummer, they most often simply bring their own marching band to the parade.

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6/25/2019, 2:57 am Link to this post PM GoHawk
 
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Re: Religion


Somebody tell me why Jesuits call themselves Catholics at all? They are the thinking order in the church.
6/25/2019, 10:39 am Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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Re: Religion


quote:

Bellelettres wrote:

Somebody tell me why Jesuits call themselves Catholics at all? They are the thinking order in the church.



One of Mr. Queue's cousins went to a Jesuit seminary, and he is one of the smartest people I know. But maybe that's because he didn't go on to join the Roman Catholic priesthood? emoticon
6/26/2019, 4:30 pm Link to this post PM MsSusieQueue
 
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How were y'all brought up religiously? I was a fundamentalist Christian, so fundamentalist that even members of other Protestant religions were going to hell; and if you were a Catholic, you were dangerous to know. Since I grew up and lost my faith, I have known several Catholics who also grew up and lost their faith, and I'm wondering which religion has the most apostates.

Religion in school can be complicated. So teachers went to class.

By Julie Zauzmer
July 5 at 7:00 AM

More than two dozen Montgomery County public educators furrowed their brows as the questions flashed on the screen. “Which is not one of the Ten Commandments?” More than half of them got it wrong. Then: “What was the religion of Maimonides?” Ten guessed that the sage was Buddhist; seven guessed he was Mormon. Six got the correct answer: Jewish.

“When does the Jewish Sabbath begin?” popped up. Again, wrong answers — many of the teachers guessed Saturday. (It’s Friday night.)

In Montgomery County, these teachers say, the religious diversity of their students often astounds them. Students ask for days off for Diwali and share stories with classmates about celebrating Eid. To educators who aren’t familiar with religion, the multitude of traditions can be overwhelming.

That’s where this summer course comes in. For six days, Montgomery teachers of all grade levels tour some of the Washington area’s religious institutions, from a Muslim mosque to a Sikh gurdwara to a Jewish synagogue. They meet with experts who teach them about the difference between Catholic and Protestant, Sunni and Shia, atheist and agnostic.

Thanks to a coordinated effort by evangelical activists, 10 state legislatures considered laws this past year encouraging public schools to teach the Christian Bible as an important work of literature and influence on history. These Bible classes, which have withstood court scrutiny in the past, are popular offerings at high schools in many states, despite critics who say teachers might far too easily violate the First Amendment by promoting a religious message as a devotional truth.

Many schools that teach the Bible are located in some of the most heavily Christian areas of the country. While Montgomery County schools don’t ask about families’ religions, they have boasted that students come from 164 countries and speak 184 languages at home. About 72 percent are students of color.

In the summer course, which concluded this week, three of the educators raised their hands to say they had taught students who wear topknots traditional to Sikh boys; others said they had supported students who were fasting during Ramadan. Stacey Wahrman, an English teacher, said John F. Kennedy High School in Wheaton has become far more diverse than it was when she started teaching there 20 years ago.

As a teacher, Wahrman said she needs to better understand her students’ religions. “I feel less comfortable, and it’s one thing I’m hoping this class will help me with, discussing evangelical Christianity,” Wahrman, who is Jewish, said on the first day of the course. She recalled reading the play “A Raisin in the Sun” with students. When some students said, based on a character considering an abortion, “She’s going to hell,” Wahrman felt she didn’t have the religious knowledge to respond confidently.

That’s the type of conversation that Christopher Murray, who teaches this course, wants to help teachers get through appropriately. Murray is a religion nerd. On visiting the many houses of worship that he takes the teachers to throughout the week, he says: “It’s kind of my Disney World.” Before leaving last year for the private Catholic school Stone Ridge School of the Sacred Heart in search of smaller class sizes and other perks, Murray taught social studies at Walter Johnson High School for 13 years — including an elective course on world religions.

When Murray asks the teachers questions about how they can legally teach religion in their schools, several say they believe it’s illegal to teach a class on religion, although it’s not. When Murray says public school teachers can’t lead prayers, according to the Supreme Court, several teachers are surprised. (“Oops,” says one teacher, admitting she has led students who share her Muslim faith in prayer at school before.)

Teachers need this sort of training, argues Diane Moore, director of Harvard University’s Religious Literacy Project, because religion inevitably comes up in their classrooms.

“There are rarely opportunities for teachers themselves to be trained in the academic study of religion, to be able to teach those hot-button, volatile issues well,” Moore said. “The key is to give teachers … tools to teach religion in a responsible and constitutionally sound way.”

https://tinyurl.com/y2a8gqn4
7/5/2019, 12:11 pm Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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Re: Religion


quote:

Bellelettres wrote:

How were y'all brought up religiously? I was a fundamentalist Christian, so fundamentalist that even members of other Protestant religions were going to hell; and if you were a Catholic, you were dangerous to know. Since I grew up and lost my faith, I have known several Catholics who also grew up and lost their faith, and I'm wondering which religion has the most apostates.




My father's side of my family -- which is the only side that matters because there wasn't, really, a mother's side -- was militantly North Irish Protestant, specifically, Presbyterian. Catholics were evil. Methodists could be tolerated, but Lutherans were suspected of being Catholic Lite. I married a Lutheran and was required by my husband's family to convert to it, which was a worry to my family. It turned out OK, though, because I eventually rejected all of it.


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7/5/2019, 12:49 pm Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Re: Religion


quote:

Bellelettres wrote:

How were y'all brought up religiously? I was a fundamentalist Christian, so fundamentalist that even members of other Protestant religions were going to hell; and if you were a Catholic, you were dangerous to know. Since I grew up and lost my faith, I have known several Catholics who also grew up and lost their faith, and I'm wondering which religion has the most apostates.





Mr. Queue was brought up Roman Catholic but has felt more at home in the Episcopal church, which I attended while growing up (and still attend). At times, I have referred to him as a "recovering Catholic," to which he responds, "There is no recovering from that."

I do know several wonderful Catholics, though. It's just that neither Mr. Queue nor I can check our questions at the church door. The Episcopal church (at least the ones we have attended) allow us to ask questions and seek a broader understanding of our fellow human beings, beyond what the "fathers" tell us.

YMMV
7/7/2019, 5:21 pm Link to this post PM MsSusieQueue
 
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I understand what Mr. Queue means by "There's no recovering from that." The guilt always has its claws in you. As Ben Stone (on Law & Order) put it, "I'm Catholic. I can feel guilty about anything."
7/8/2019, 6:57 am Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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Re: Religion


I was raised Catholic. I vividly remember staring every Sunday at the crucifix with Jesus' broken and bleeding body on it, with the words "Your sins did that" going through my head....

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Lis

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7/8/2019, 3:03 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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I had a completely different reaction to having been raised a Roman Catholic, and for the most part attending Catholic schools, grammar and high school. I’m not a practicing Catholic now, but I got an appetite to understand more of the inner significance of the ideas presented in Scripture from my time when I was. If fact it inspired to make the efforts I’ve made studying the ideas and trying to articulate them in a more digestible form digestible, that is, from my perspective. I believe that the teachings of the Church are teachings about human psychology and the possibility of self transformation. But I also believe that there is an inner and an outer Church and that many, if not most Catholics are focused on the outer, exoteric side and are not particularly interested in the inner, psychological side.

As far as guilt is concerned, I don’t hold a candle to that of my closest friend who happens to be Jewish. lol
7/8/2019, 4:00 pm Link to this post PM bricklayer
 
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I'm glad it was a good experience for you, Brick. I wonder how much of what is taught really relies on the conservatism or liberalism of the priests in charge of a particular area. Mom was a deeply devout Catholic, adhering strictly to all of the rules. I was the 6-year-old in CCD, questioning the teachings of the nuns. Poor nuns.

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7/8/2019, 4:57 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Religion


Mormons to the Rescue?

The reddest faith in America is also the one most skeptical of Donald Trump.

By Timothy Egan
Oct. 11, 2019

In order to understand the Republican Party today, you have to understand religion. Donald Trump may be the most unreligious president ever — an undisciplined force of corrosive evil. And yet he tweets comparisons to himself as the Messiah and bullies his way around the world with the blind support of white evangelical Christians.

But the one religious faith that is the most heavily Republican is also somewhat disgusted with Trump. Barely half the members of the American-grown Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints approve of his presidency.

And therein lies the best chance, though it’s very much a long shot, to remove Trump from office. Wait! Mormons — forged from a polygamous theocracy in the Rocky Mountain West, tainted by decades of institutional racism and still very much opposed to marriage equality — to the rescue of the Republic? Maybe.

We know that the rule of law, the Constitution’s granting of “the sole power of impeachment” to the House, is toilet paper to many congressional Republicans. When Trump said Article II of our governing blueprint “allows me to do whatever I want,” and almost no members of his party begged to differ, you could see what was ahead. Banana Republicans rule.

Expelling Trump will be decided by appeals to our better angels. At this moment, those angels with the most influence are Mormons with an R on their jerseys. Mormons believe that the Constitution, which doesn’t mention God except in the document’s date, to be divinely inspired.

And yes, that means our nation turns its lonely eyes to Mitt Romney, the Utah senator, former Republican presidential nominee and most prominent face of his faith on the planet. In order to understand Romney you have to understand his Mormon beliefs.

With their missionary experience, and a fast-growing Latino membership, Mormons are appalled at Trump’s anti-immigrant cruelties. On family values, many of them actually walk the talk — which explains why just 14 percent of Utah voters viewed Trump as a good role model.

I would say “We are all Mitt Romney now” after he was scorched by Trump for lashing out at the president’s gangster foreign policy. Except that Romney himself famously said that 47 percent of Americans are moochers who would never vote for him for president. Irony alert: Romney ended up with 47 percent of the popular vote.

And it was another Mormon senator, the unfortunately named Jeff Flake of Arizona, who led an earlier charge against Trump. This week, Flake, who has since left the Senate, tweeted, “Fellow Republicans, where is the line?”

That will be the central question before the Senate. It would take 20 Republicans, along with everyone in the Democratic caucus, for the Senate to reach the two-thirds majority required to remove Trump. The winless New York Jets have a better shot at the Super Bowl.

The political calculation will guide some, but not all. There are already breaches in the Fox News firewall, and a stunning 28 percent of Republican voters in one recent poll favor the impeachment inquiry.

Playing to the larger moral issues is where the Mormon charge will be crucial. Another Mormon senator, Mike Crapo of Idaho, has kept an open mind thus far. An independent presidential candidate from 2016, Evan McMullin, has been a principled Mormon critic of Trump’s lawlessness.

“Remember that Trump will tear down anyone who rightfully challenges him,” McMullin said this week. “Unable to lead with honor, all he has left is to make everyone seem as rotten as he is.”

The rot among the collaterally rotten is already deep. White evangelicals — having looked the other way while the Stable Genius, showing his “great and unmatched wisdom,” put kids in cages, praised neo-Nazis, sucked up to murderous dictators and betrayed our beleaguered allies the Kurds — are gone, lost to the dark side.
Most despicable of all, the Dallas pastor Robert Jeffress has suggested that impeaching Trump could cause a “Civil War-like fracture” in the country. Jeffress has also said terrible things about Jews, Mormons and Catholics — the kind of hate talk that has not kept him from being one of Trump’s closest evangelical advisers.

You have to believe that most Republicans in Congress know Trump has violated his oath of office. But most of them are also cowards. That goes for some Mormon Republicans, such as Senator Mike Lee of Utah, a former Trump critic, now an enabler. For them, the old line from J.R. Ewing is apt: “Once you give up your integrity, the rest is a piece of cake.”

Romney has never caved, though he nearly joined the Trump administration as secretary of state. In 2016, he called Trump “a fraud” whose promises “are as worthless as a degree from Trump University.”

With Trump’s Ukraine betrayals, Romney has signaled that he will be a ballast of conscience for Republicans in the Senate. His seat is safe till 2024. He has nothing to lose. At long last, he has a chance to make history — for his faith, and his country.

https://tinyurl.com/yyhk3vfe
10/11/2019, 9:05 am Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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Re: Religion


I agree with Konner that religion is part of human nature. It is my view, too, that it will never go away. I think it’s intuitive. Reason and intuition are parallel cousins who can’t cancel each other out because they never cross each other.

Why Is Religion Still Around?
Book review of “Believers: Faith in Human Nature,” by Melvin Konner


By Elaine Pagels
November 11, 2019

In “Believers,” the anthropologist Melvin Konner takes on the question: Why is religion still around? Challenging those he calls “the Quartet” of “belligerent atheists” — Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris — who see in religious traditions nothing but willful ignorance, Konner sets out to investigate the persistence of religious belief. At the outset, he identifies himself as an atheist who, after adolescence, left behind his own religious upbringing, and draws upon his experience as an anthropologist living among hunter-gatherers in Botswana. Then, in each of the following lively chapters, he explores an astonishing range of perspectives.

Konner begins with the psychologist William James’s classic “Varieties of Religious Experience,” declaring that he shares James’s interest in creating “a science of religion.” Recognizing deficiencies in what James wrote to counter Sigmund Freud’s dismissal of religion as infantile illusion, “the neurosis of the human race,” Konner agrees that Freud, like members of the Quartet, overvalued rationality, urging people to seek answers only in science and to dismiss questions that science can’t answer.

Noting that the death of religion, so long predicted, has failed to arrive, Konner asks “what it is about the brain … that has made this so.” He relates how earlier anthropologists exploded the myth of some single universal underlying the diversity of all cultures. Then, noting that “theorizing about religion’s origins is now a cottage industry,” he dives into scientific and social scientific papers that investigate related questions, and offers a series of marvelously readable chapters to summarize the research they present.

After these preliminary discussions, Konner (who also has a medical degree) explores neurological experiments in “brain mapping,” as some researchers seek particular brain circuits that may respond to experiences seen as religious. Next he investigates reports of experiences catalyzed by mind-altering drugs in religious rituals, as well as in laboratory experiments; not only what he calls “Marx’s opium,” but also cannabis, peyote, ayahuasca, amanita, coca, tobacco, alcohol and chocolate. After summarizing the findings, Konner comments that “each overlaps with some non-drug-induced religious experience, and each has been used in somebody’s religion.” From there Konner proceeds to survey research by cognitive and social psychologists, social scientists and philosophers seeking to understand how religion is formed not just in the brain, but in the mind. Attempting to include as complete a picture as possible, he also considers studies of evidence for religious behavior in some animal species, as well as in children, interspersing reports of these with anecdotes drawn from various traditions.

While introducing these varied perspectives and noting the insights that many can offer, Konner reminds the reader that people, even within the same culture or, indeed, within the same family, respond to situations differently, complicating any attempt to generalize about what one might say about any specific “human need” for religion — whether for psychological reassurance, social cohesion or any other of the most obvious answers.

Best of all, Konner refrains from offering a simple answer, which people asking questions about religion often expect. Instead, like Charles Darwin, he notes that “such a huge dimension of life must serve many functions.” Some readers may take this to mean he is ducking the question; yet the energy and passion the book articulates belie that charge. In his final chapters, he clearly states his conviction that religion is “a part of human nature,” and so “very persistent, and, in my view, will never go away.”

Konner’s “Believers” offers a terrific running start for anyone who shares his excitement about the questions he raises. And in his bibliography, he offers much more: a list of over 40 pages of recent articles and books discussing each topic — which leaves this reader eager to dive into that trove of sources he cites.

Finally, his book calls to mind a story — apocryphal or not! — that some physicists love to tell of the great physicist Niels Bohr: A colleague, visiting him at home in Denmark, was startled to see a horseshoe nailed over the barn door, and exclaimed, “Surely you don’t believe in that stuff, do you?” Bohr answered: “Of course not! But it works whether you believe in it or not.”

https://tinyurl.com/vmbzvu7
 



11/16/2019, 6:36 am Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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Interesting, Belle. I appreciate the brain science. I don't think the existence of a supreme being CAN be proven or disproven. That's why it's called faith, I guess. Neither side is likely to persuade the other, which is why it's vitally important to protect both freedom OF religion and freedom FROM religion to let all people seek their own truth.

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Lis

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11/16/2019, 1:04 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Did you all know about this? A poster on CEII mentioned it, and I googled. It's interesting to me that the people who did this think the Bible is too liberal.

Conservative Bible Project aims to rewrite scripture to counter perceived liberal bias

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Dec 04, 2009 | 2:20 PM

CHARLESTON, West Virginia - The Gospel of Luke records that, as he was dying on the cross, Jesus showed his boundless mercy by praying for his killers this way: "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

Not so fast, say contributors to the Conservative Bible Project.

The project, an online effort to create a Bible suitable for contemporary conservative sensibilities, claims Jesus' quote is a disputed addition abetted by liberal biblical scholars, even if it appears in some form in almost every translation of the Bible.

The project's authors argue that contemporary scholars have inserted liberal views and ahistorical passages into the Bible, turning Jesus into little more than a well-meaning social worker with a store of watered-down platitudes.

"Professors are the most liberal group of people in the world, and it's professors who are doing the popular modern translations of the Bible," said Andy Schlafly, founder of Conservapedia.com, the project's online home.

Experts who have devoted their careers to unraveling the ancient texts of the Scriptures, many in long-extinct languages, are predictably skeptical about a project by amateur translators.

"This is not making scripture understandable to people today, it's reworking scripture to support a particular political or social agenda," said Timothy Paul Jones, a professor at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, who calls himself a theological conservative.

Religious publishers already provide an alphabet soup of Bible translations for a range of theological outlooks, from the King James Version to the Revised Standard Version and beyond. The most widely used traditional translations were overseen by scholars who are considered the best minds in conservative Christianity.

"The phrase 'theological conservative' does not mean that someone is politically conservative," said Schlafly, who lives in Far Hills, New Jersey.

This liberal slanting, Schlafly argues, ranges from changing gendered language — Jesus calling his disciples to be "fishers of people" rather than "fishers of men" — to more subtle choices, like the 2001 English Standard Version of the Bible, which uses "comrade" and "laborer" more often than the conservative-friendly "volunteer."

Contributors to the project aren't arguing on ideological grounds alone. The discussion forum on the site is full of discourse on Greek grammar, along with arguments long familiar to Biblical scholars about the history of certain passages.

Take the famous passage from Luke: the Conservative Bible Project omits it not only because it's "a favorite of liberals," but because there's some dispute over its authenticity, based on the manuscripts it appears in.

Jones, the professor, said while some early Greek manuscripts omit Jesus' words, others include them.

"There are so many factors to consider when looking at that, but here it gets boiled down to 'liberals put it in,'" he said. "You've got people who are doing this who have probably never looked at an actual ancient manuscript."

In some ways, the Conservative Bible Project reflects an ancient debate over Scripture. The Bible as it's known today more or less took final shape in the 4th century after hundreds of years of debate over which books were canonical.

The debate flared up again during the Protestant Reformation, when Martin Luther fruitlessly yearned to cut the Book of James because of its fairly explicit contradiction of his belief that salvation could be attained by faith alone.

"People have always done this with the Bible," said Philip Jenkins, a professor of history and religious studies at Pennsylvania State University. "Virtually everyone in a mainstream Protestant or Roman Catholic church in the United States is reading a doctored version of the Bible."

Jenkins is referring to the Revised Common Lectionary, a selection of biblical texts read in worship services that amounts to about a third of the full text.

Schlafly's project is distinctive, though, because non-experts collaborate Wiki-style on the Internet to produce their version.

"The best of the public is better than a group of experts," said Schlafly, whose mother, Phyllis, is a longtime conservative activist known for her opposition to the Equal Rights Amendment.

Jones says the project is a misguided effort to read contemporary politics back into the text.
"Ironically, there's a long tradition of the liberal twisting of scripture," Jones said. "Scholars have rightly deemed those translations illegitimate, and this conservative Bible is every bit as illegitimate."

The Bible's roots in a dizzying variety of ancient manuscripts require a lifetime of dedication to master, said the Rev. Frank Matera, a professor at the Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C., and a former president of the Catholic Biblical Association of America.

"There's a little Italian proverb, 'Every translator is a traitor,'" Matera said. "Most Bible translations are usually done by a group of scholars, precisely so they can balance out each other. It's not something that everybody can do."

https://tinyurl.com/wyfg9fm
2/9/2020, 5:47 pm Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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Re: Religion


So much for the Revealed Word of God notion.

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2/9/2020, 6:15 pm Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Well, the right wingnuts of religion insist that God only reveals His word to them alone -- so EVERYONE else is a heretic.

I would volunteer to help build a second wall in Wyoming to completely enclose and "protect" these folks, right after we finish building the Trump wall to completely enclose THOSE folks. Maybe we should build a passageway between the two, since there is surely some overlap between the two groups.

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Lis

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2/10/2020, 6:44 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Religion


Image
2/10/2020, 7:33 pm Link to this post PM Whatsupchuck
 


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