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Re: Musings


quote:

Miz Robbie wrote:

Bernie came to Seattle twice, I think. My son, daughter-in-law, and I drove down (90 miles) to Seattle to see his first rally. A few months later he had a second. The first got 12,000-plus cheering people and I think the second was similar.

Hillary came to Seattle twice, too, I think. She went to very wealthy private homes in a rich Seattle suburb and held spendy fundraisers. I don't know of any rallies she held around here for the un-rich.

That told me a lot.



And that is a Hillary mistake. I completely agree with you that this was a bad message to send, and she cannot blame anyone outside of her own campaign for these choices.

No one came anywhere near our part of the state throughout the entire campaign. Cruz and Trump were trotting around the state because if I remember correctly, we were the last primary before Cruz folded. Bernie had a big event down at Indiana University, but I think Hillary may have stayed in Indianapolis. We were left out of the general elections, but we generally are. Republicans count Indiana as a given, and Democrats count Indiana as a known loss.

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Lis

Just one voice.... Singing in the darkness....
9/15/2017, 1:00 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Musings


quote:

Miz Robbie wrote:

And this discussion is why I said, a few weeks back on the Book Notes thread, that I thought her publishing this book was ill-advised. Those already inclined to think favorably of Hillary will continue to do so. Those already disinclined will find new things with which they can find fault. And those in the middle are far more likely to be pulled along with the dislikers than with the likers.

I think she should have written this for her own catharsis, shared it will Bill and Chelsea, then put it in a bottom drawer someplace.



I still disagree, Robbie. emoticon A whole lot of people want to know what happened from Hillary's perspective, and those are the folks who will buy her book. Those who don't like her or don't care about her perspective won't.

But I sincerely don't think it's going to pull undecided people to the negative. I don't know that it will change their minds at all, because those who are still undecided about their feelings for her at THIS late date probably are not very involved in politics anyway.

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Lis

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9/15/2017, 1:04 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Musings


quote:

Bellelettres wrote:

I saw Katy Tur on last night's edition of Rachel this morning (on demand). She has written a book about the election from the point of view of how the press was treated by Trump and his supporters. I'm eager to read that.



I saw part of that interview. I am very impressed by Katy, and the abuse she took from Trump throughout that campaign was mind-blowing. If I could ever find time in my life, I'd like to read this book, too.

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Lis

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9/15/2017, 1:07 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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CooterBrown44 wrote:

I thought that both The Miz and Peter made good points. I'm not smart or astute enough to figure that stuff out for myself. I have to have somebody lead me down the path.



Bwahahahaha!!! Cooter!!!

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Lis

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9/15/2017, 1:08 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Musings


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bricklayer wrote:

I just finished watching Rachel Maddow's interview of Hillary. I thought it was well done and engaging. Much of the interview revolved around current events and my take away from that exchange was how refreshing it was to hear an adult articulating a perspective based on experience and a coherent world view and pointed up the stark contrast with what we have now. She was direct when speaking about Trump and focused on his behavior, demeanor and character starting with the start of his campaign and continuing to the present moment and skewered him properly.

She was critical of Tillerson based on his limited, even non-existent experience in diplomacy and his willingness to essentially gut the diplomatic corps, and didn't mince words about it. She pointed out that the State Department is being mishandled and pointed out that the Trump Administration came to power with a bias against diplomats and diplomacy.

I enjoyed it and I saw little blame in the interview. Even with her criticism of Comey she expressed bewilderment rather than assigning nefarious motives for Comey's conduct. I learned a number of things and was reminded of what competence looks like. I wish I had seen more of that during her campaign.



I always worry when I come to a long thread of posts, that if I don't read through them all before responding, I'll say something I later regret. Sorry for recommending that you watch Hillary's interview with Rachel -- I see you did!

I came away with the same impressions you did, Brick. It was very refreshing to see her so candid. Like you, I really wish we could have seen more of that during the campaign. But I think candidates have to be so very careful about EVERY comment they make that they fear saying anything at all.... "Binders full of women" and "Basket of deplorables" come to mind quickly.

Can you IMAGINE how different the State Department would be under a Hillary presidency? *whew*

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Lis

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9/15/2017, 1:13 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Musings


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Bellelettres wrote:

Brick, I had the same reaction you did to Rachel's interview with Hillary. I was mesmerized.

The first 30 minutes of the 46-minute interview was spent talking about North Korea and the State Department and other aspects of what is going on. It was only in the last quarter of the interview that they talked about Hillary's book. And these were mostly not the usual questions Hillary gets. There was some discussion about the trouble women who run for office have with sexism, but it was by no means same-ole, same-ole. Rachel and Hillary are articulate women with wide minds. All through, the interview was fresh.

At the beginning, Hillary looked depressed, but as they spoke, she regained some of the spark that has always made her a fascinating speaker to me. I can't imagine why anyone is ever bored by her. Maybe because the things that bore them fascinate me, such as deep intelligence in clear language. When Rachel said they would now talk about Comey, I was nervous. OK, I thought, here comes some same-ole, same-ole. Oh me of little faith! Rachel asked Hillary whether, given the way Comey handled revelations about Hillary's e-mail investigation, Hillary thought Comey would be a reliable witness in the Russian investigation. What a question! She also asked whether, if Hillary had been elected, she would have fired Comey.

The interview is on YouTube here:

[sign in to see URL]



I was going to mention this on the Media thread, but since you brought it up here, I'll just put it here.

I watched Hillary's interview with Anderson Cooper Wednesday night and her interview with Rachel Maddow last night. I have deep respect for both journalists. But the "feel" of the interviews was very different. Anderson Cooper's questions seemed..."expected." Far more about the campaign than current issues. But he got her to demonstrate "alternate nostril breathing" -- something I'd never heard of, and something Candidate Clinton would NEVER have done.

Rachel's questions were more fresh, more personal, more in-depth. As you noted, I saw Hillary become more at ease as the interview progressed. And the interview left me wanting much more. As she was discussing policy in that first half hour, I literally wanted to cry. Seriously. This is who we COULD have had in office, coolly evaluating facts and calling on experts to bring in information to help make reasoned policy decisions. It made my heart hurt again.

It just shows again the power of the interviewer in making the interview something special.

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Lis

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9/15/2017, 1:19 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Musings


quote:

JustLis wrote:

quote:

Bellelettres wrote:

I think the split in the party did hurt Hillary in the election (who can doubt it?), but Bernie's people had a legitimate complaint: The DNC did everything it could to favor Hillary in the primaries.



Belle, every time I see this argument from Bernie supporters, I feel a duty to remind them that Bernie was NOT a Democrat and never BECAME a Democrat. He was only USING the Democratic apparatus to try to get the nomination. He could have done it as an independent, as a democratic socialist, or via any number of third-party systems. But he chose the Democratic Party because it made things a whole lot easier for him.




I take issue with that. Bernie ran as a Democrat in order to avoid doing what Ralph Nader had done: run as a third-party spoiler candidate, splitting the votes from the left into the Democratic and Independent candidates, ensuring that neither could get enough votes to win and guaranteeing the Republican a victory.

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9/15/2017, 1:48 pm Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Re: Musings


quote:

Miz Robbie wrote:

quote:

JustLis wrote:

quote:

Bellelettres wrote:

I think the split in the party did hurt Hillary in the election (who can doubt it?), but Bernie's people had a legitimate complaint: The DNC did everything it could to favor Hillary in the primaries.



Belle, every time I see this argument from Bernie supporters, I feel a duty to remind them that Bernie was NOT a Democrat and never BECAME a Democrat. He was only USING the Democratic apparatus to try to get the nomination. He could have done it as an independent, as a democratic socialist, or via any number of third-party systems. But he chose the Democratic Party because it made things a whole lot easier for him.




I take issue with that. Bernie ran as a Democrat in order to avoid doing what Ralph Nader had done: run as a third-party spoiler candidate, splitting the votes from the left into the Democratic and Independent candidates, ensuring that neither could get enough votes to win and guaranteeing the Republican a victory.



It could have been a factor in his decision, Robbie. But if he wanted it to be a true two-party race, he would have identified himself as a Democrat. He never did. So he ran a third-party race within the confines of a two-party structure -- using the Democratic Party without becoming a member. And then whined that the Democratic Party favored the candidate who actually WAS a member of the party. Faux tears.

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Lis

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9/15/2017, 1:52 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Lis, you can change your party affiliation anytime you want to. In Vermont, you don't register the affiliation, so he is not registered with any party. But, as you said, he was one the Democratic primary ballots, so he was recognized by the DNC as a Democrat.

A lawsuit was filed against the DNC by donors to the party who were supporters of Bernie in June 2016, claiming specific instances in which the DNC took specific actions to favor Hillary over Bernie against Article 4, Section 5, of the DNC charter:

Article 4, Section 5 of the DNC charter states: “The chairperson shall exercise impartiality and evenhandedness between the presidential candidates and campaigns. The chairperson shall be responsible for ensuring that the national officers and staff of the Democratic National Committee maintain impartiality and evenhandedness during the Democratic Party presidential nominating process.”

[sign in to see URL]

Here is the text of the class action lawsuit filed in June of 2016 against the DNC on behalf of Bernie donors. The section about neutrality is on Page 17. After that the instances of non-neutrality during the primaries are listed.

[sign in to see URL]

And here is an article that may have some information that the others don't.

Bernie Sanders supporters are suing the DNC: Here’s what you need to know

[sign in to see URL]

9/15/2017, 2:22 pm Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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Oops! As I was juggling articles, I left out a very interesting argument the DNC made in a hearing on the lawsuit:

The most recent court hearing on the case was held on April 25, during which the DNC reportedly argued that the organization's neutrality among Democratic campaigns during the primaries was merely a "political promise," and therefore it had no legal obligations to remain impartial throughout the process.

[sign in to see URL]

Did I mention that, despite the unfairness of the DNC I saw at the time, I supported Hillary because I thought she was better qualified to be President than Bernie? I'm batty about them both.
9/15/2017, 2:34 pm Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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Re: Musings


quote:

JustLis wrote:

quote:

Miz Robbie wrote:

I take issue with that. Bernie ran as a Democrat in order to avoid doing what Ralph Nader had done: run as a third-party spoiler candidate, splitting the votes from the left into the Democratic and Independent candidates, ensuring that neither could get enough votes to win and guaranteeing the Republican a victory.



It could have been a factor in his decision, Robbie. But if he wanted it to be a true two-party race, he would have identified himself as a Democrat. He never did. So he ran a third-party race within the confines of a two-party structure -- using the Democratic Party without becoming a member. And then whined that the Democratic Party favored the candidate who actually WAS a member of the party. Faux tears.



Given that he said on more than one occasion that it was why he ran as a Democrat, I'll take it as more than "a factor" in his choosing to run as a Democrat.

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9/15/2017, 2:41 pm Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Thanks for all of the links, Belle. I won't even attempt to pretend to be a lawyer, but I read through the lawsuit and was left scratching my head about what these people really want -- other than their money back and to punish the Democratic Party for what they apparently see as grievous injustices.

Then I read the article, and it pretty much confirmed what I thought. According to the article, as I read it, a successful suit would require that the court find that people who donated to Bernie Sanders did so BECAUSE they were specifically told by the Democratic Party that Hillary and Bernie would be treated completely impartially, and those donors relied on that representation in deciding to make their donations. I call bull on that from the very start. People donated to Bernie because they liked his message and they wanted to support his candidacy. Period.

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Lis

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9/15/2017, 3:25 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Musings


Lis spake:

quote:

It could have been a factor in his decision, Robbie. But if he wanted it to be a true two-party race, he would have identified himself as a Democrat. He never did. So he ran a third-party race within the confines of a two-party structure -- using the Democratic Party without becoming a member. And then whined that the Democratic Party favored the candidate who actually WAS a member of the party. Faux tears.



And Donald Trump has been a member of the Reform Party (until he discovered in 2001 that David Duke had been a member), a DEM (twice) and a GOP (twice). He staged a hostile takeover of the GOP, without ever pledging to back the party's nominee, if he were to lose the race for the nomination. He claimed the system was rigged and won anyway.

Bernie tried to take over the DEM party, said the system was rigged, and lost. He did back the eventual nominee, as he pledge to do, even before he announced his candidacy.

I think there's a world of difference.

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Peter

"When it comes to humility, I'm the greatest." - Bullwinkle Moose
9/15/2017, 4:16 pm Link to this post PM streamline2001
 
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quote:

streamline2001 wrote:

Lis spake:

quote:

It could have been a factor in his decision, Robbie. But if he wanted it to be a true two-party race, he would have identified himself as a Democrat. He never did. So he ran a third-party race within the confines of a two-party structure -- using the Democratic Party without becoming a member. And then whined that the Democratic Party favored the candidate who actually WAS a member of the party. Faux tears.



And Donald Trump has been a member of the Reform Party (until he discovered in 2001 that David Duke had been a member), a DEM (twice) and a GOP (twice). He staged a hostile takeover of the GOP, without ever pledging to back the party's nominee, if he were to lose the race for the nomination. He claimed the system was rigged and won anyway.

Bernie tried to take over the DEM party, said the system was rigged, and lost. He did back the eventual nominee, as he pledge to do, even before he announced his candidacy.

I think there's a world of difference.



Peter, I completely agree there is a WORLD of difference between how Trump and Bernie used the party structures at hand.

One of the differences is that Trump claimed to have become a Republican. Over and over (and even now) he claims to be a Republican.

And Bernie still won't become a Democrat. That is his prerogative, of course, but it is still an important difference.

As for whether he actually supported Hillary after the nominations, I agree that he spoke words to support [sign in to see URL] it always felt like a very tepid endorsement. Like he knew he was SUPPOSED to support her, but he was still calling for his supporters to support HIS agenda, while she was still the nominee.

Bear in mind, I did support Sanders in the primary, so I'm not anti-Bernie. emoticon

[sign in to see URL]'s be honest. If anyone here thinks the GOP treated every one of ITS candidates even-handedly, and did nothing to try to diminish Trump's candidacy in the primaries, I have a dozen bridges for sale....

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Lis

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9/15/2017, 4:28 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Is that last paragraph a non-sequitur, Lis? You can't be implying that partiality by the RNC for one candidate over another has any bearing on what it's wrong or right for the DNC to do.
9/15/2017, 4:53 pm Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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quote:

JustLis wrote:

As for whether he actually supported Hillary after the nominations, I agree that he spoke words to support [sign in to see URL] it always felt like a very tepid endorsement. Like he knew he was SUPPOSED to support her, but he was still calling for his supporters to support HIS agenda, while she was still the nominee.




I've seen it said in other places that his support for her after the nomination was tepid. I can't quarrel with how it felt to you, but it seemed to me he worked his butt off for her.

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9/15/2017, 5:41 pm Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Bellelettres wrote:

Is that last paragraph a non-sequitur, Lis? You can't be implying that partiality by the RNC for one candidate over another has any bearing on what it's wrong or right for the DNC to do.



It was a last-minute thought, after proofreading my post, Belle. Of course, what the RNC does has no bearing on what the DNC does. But I must admit to a level of frustration over Republican (out there; not here) angst over what happened to poor Bernie.

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9/15/2017, 5:50 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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quote:

Miz Robbie wrote:

quote:

JustLis wrote:

As for whether he actually supported Hillary after the nominations, I agree that he spoke words to support [sign in to see URL] it always felt like a very tepid endorsement. Like he knew he was SUPPOSED to support her, but he was still calling for his supporters to support HIS agenda, while she was still the nominee.




I've seen it said in other places that his support for her after the nomination was tepid. I can't quarrel with how it felt to you, but it seemed to me he worked his butt off for her.



I understand. Perceptions vary, and that's a good thing. It gives us something to talk about. emoticon

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9/15/2017, 5:51 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Musings


My son posted this on Facebook about an hour ago. I can't tell you how proud I am to be his mother.

*****
Dave Walker
1 hr ·

Dear fellow straight, white men:

Recently, African American athletes have tried desperately to communicate a message. They'd like us to know that the world they experience is different from ours. They want us to understand that the marginalization they face every day is real, it's common, it's serious, and it's wrong. And they want it to change.

They'd like us to hear this.

Women are also trying to get our attention. They'd like us to know that the world they experience is different from ours. The point of #MeToo was to illustrate how virtually every women you know has been directly affected by harassment, intimidation, and rape at the hands of men. They want us to understand that the marginalization they face every day is real, it's common, it's serious, and it's wrong. And they want it to change.

They'd like us to hear this.

The LGBTQ community would also like us to know that the world they experience is different from ours. They want us to understand that they simply want the same opportunities to be who they are that we take for granted, and that the marginalization they face every day is real, it's common, it's serious, and it's wrong. And they want it to change.

They'd like us to hear this.

How are we responding? We criticize the way they're expressing their messages. We blame them. We try to minimize the severity of their experiences. We say, "yeah, but...."

I believe it will work better for everybody if we try hearing them instead.

This straight, white dude is doing my best to listen, learn, understand, and help create the changes being requested.

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Robbie
10/20/2017, 2:55 pm Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Way to go, Dave! I can tell your mamma raised you right.
10/20/2017, 4:01 pm Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 


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