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Re: Musings


I agree with what you said, Peter, but I don't know how that differs from what I said.

What am I missing?

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9/14/2017, 11:16 am Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Re: Musings


quote:

Bellelettres wrote:

Brick, I don't mean this in an offensive way, but I think blaming Hillary for her election loss (which election, by the way, she won by 3 million votes) is like blaming Jesus for the crucifixion.

How could she have reacted to Comey's reopening of the e-mail investigation 11 days before the election that would have changed the damage that did? You may recall that people who had already voted for her were saying publicly that they regretted doing so, and Trump claimed for a time that they could change their vote. Hillary is not the only person who thinks the Comey decision was decisive.

Describing the things that happened to damage her campaign is not the same as blaming everybody but herself for her loss.



No offense taken, Belle. I think what got to me is when she said her mistakes weren't enough to cause her to lose. But what if she hadn't made them? I can imagine her reacting to Comey's release of that terribly damaging information at that time differently than she did in that moment, even if it was to protest loudly and clearly in real time. Wanting her to take responsibility for the loss publicly isn't quite the same as blaming her. To be fair, I haven't read the book so I'm basing my view on what I've seen reported and on the snippets of her commenting on her view of it all.

I'll be watching Rachel Maddow tonight with interest when she interviews Hillary.



Last edited by bricklayer, 9/14/2017, 11:49 am
9/14/2017, 11:23 am Link to this post PM bricklayer
 
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Re: Musings


Only one thing. I think there is a real value to a book by HRC deconstructing the political mood of the country in 2016. It belongs on bookshelves and should be studied. I simply believe she wasn't ready to write that book right now. She needed to put some time between herself and the election, so as to offer a dispassionate analysis of what went right and wrong.

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"When it comes to humility, I'm the greatest." - Bullwinkle Moose
9/14/2017, 11:23 am Link to this post PM streamline2001
 
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Re: Musings


quote:

bricklayer wrote:

No offense taken, Robbie.




Good! However, that was Belle. emoticon

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9/14/2017, 11:42 am Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Re: Musings


quote:

streamline2001 wrote:

Only one thing. I think there is a real value to a book by HRC deconstructing the political mood of the country in 2016. It belongs on bookshelves and should be studied. I simply believe she wasn't ready to write that book right now. She needed to put some time between herself and the election, so as to offer a dispassionate analysis of what went right and wrong.



Ah, yes. The book might have value some day, but it's too soon for her now. Yes, I agree.

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9/14/2017, 11:43 am Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Re: Musings


Lol! Oops. I'll edit the post. *sheepish grin* And I hadn't even taken my meds when I made that post. Well, not my home brew anyway. emoticon
9/14/2017, 11:47 am Link to this post PM bricklayer
 
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Re: Musings


I'm always happy to be mistaken for Robbie, Brick.

9/14/2017, 12:06 pm Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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Re: Musings


Robbie, this was the first election that had a woman running as a major party candidate and the first where the other major party nominated someone with no military or government experience. Even Wendell Willkie served in the Army! These two factors by themselves make it worth studying carefully.

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9/14/2017, 12:21 pm Link to this post PM streamline2001
 
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Re: Musings


I saw Katy Tur on last night's edition of Rachel this morning (on demand). She has written a book about the election from the point of view of how the press was treated by Trump and his supporters. I'm eager to read that.
9/14/2017, 12:30 pm Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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Re: Musings


quote:

Bellelettres wrote:

I saw Katy Tur on last night's edition of Rachel this morning (on demand). She has written a book about the election from the point of view of how the press was treated by Trump and his supporters. I'm eager to read that.



So am I, Belle. I think this one might be the one that gives us an evenhanded picture.

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9/14/2017, 12:39 pm Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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I thought that both The Miz and Peter made good points. I'm not smart or astute enough to figure that stuff out for myself. I have to have somebody lead me down the path.
9/14/2017, 1:24 pm Link to this post PM CooterBrown44
 
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quote:

CooterBrown44 wrote:

I thought that both The Miz and Peter made good points. I'm not smart or astute enough to figure that stuff out for myself. I have to have somebody lead me down the path.



OK, that one would have made me spit my coffee all over the screen had I read it earlier in the day. emoticon

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9/14/2017, 1:50 pm Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Don't worry, Jep!

--Log in or sign up to see linked image content--

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9/14/2017, 3:58 pm Link to this post PM streamline2001
 
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Allow me to make a few observations about Hillary's campaign. And then I am going to return to trying to find a way of surviving four years of Donald Trump and his gang that can't shoot straight.

Belle, you came close with Jon Huntsman. but he has retired from elective politics. So I reached over to the Democratic side and wrote in Mark Warner, the Senator from Virginia. I had given some consideration to Susan Collins but ended up choosing Warner for his combination of both breadth and depth of experience.

Yes Belle, there is some 20-20 hind sight involved with the outcome of the election. However I also believe there were numerous evaluations dating all the way back to 2008 on how weak a candidate Hillary was, and how badly her campaigns were mismanaged. During the election, numerous polls indicated that Hillary was in trouble against literally every major Republican candidate.

As I mentioned earlier, in my estimation it is time to move on. Hillary is yesterday's news. it is time for both political parties to evaluate where the yare. and just exactly where it is they need to be, and how they plan to get there.

while both parties face monumental tasks, the Republicans face an almost insurmountable task in rebuilding a party lost at sea. They may be best served by totally dismantling the existing party and rebuilding a party in the image of the party that existed in the first half of the 20th century.

well, enough of my babbling for today.

---
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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9/14/2017, 4:54 pm Link to this post PM GoHawk
 
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I just finished watching Rachel Maddow's interview of Hillary. I thought it was well done and engaging. Much of the interview revolved around current events and my take away from that exchange was how refreshing it was to hear an adult articulating a perspective based on experience and a coherent world view and pointed up the stark contrast with what we have now. She was direct when speaking about Trump and focused on his behavior, demeanor and character starting with the start of his campaign and continuing to the present moment and skewered him properly.

She was critical of Tillerson based on his limited, even non-existent experience in diplomacy and his willingness to essentially gut the diplomatic corps, and didn't mince words about it. She pointed out that the State Department is being mishandled and pointed out that the Trump Administration came to power with a bias against diplomats and diplomacy.

I enjoyed it and I saw little blame in the interview. Even with her criticism of Comey she expressed bewilderment rather than assigning nefarious motives for Comey's conduct. I learned a number of things and was reminded of what competence looks like. I wish I had seen more of that during her campaign.
9/15/2017, 7:12 am Link to this post PM bricklayer
 
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Brick, I had the same reaction you did to Rachel's interview with Hillary. I was mesmerized.

The first 30 minutes of the 46-minute interview was spent talking about North Korea and the State Department and other aspects of what is going on. It was only in the last quarter of the interview that they talked about Hillary's book. And these were mostly not the usual questions Hillary gets. There was some discussion about the trouble women who run for office have with sexism, but it was by no means same-ole, same-ole. Rachel and Hillary are articulate women with wide minds. All through, the interview was fresh.

At the beginning, Hillary looked depressed, but as they spoke, she regained some of the spark that has always made her a fascinating speaker to me. I can't imagine why anyone is ever bored by her. Maybe because the things that bore them fascinate me, such as deep intelligence in clear language. When Rachel said they would now talk about Comey, I was nervous. OK, I thought, here comes some same-ole, same-ole. Oh me of little faith! Rachel asked Hillary whether, given the way Comey handled revelations about Hillary's e-mail investigation, Hillary thought Comey would be a reliable witness in the Russian investigation. What a question! She also asked whether, if Hillary had been elected, she would have fired Comey.

The interview is on YouTube here:

[sign in to see URL]
9/15/2017, 8:05 am Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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quote:

Miz Robbie wrote:

I decided to bring this thread here from the old board because there is no other thread here that seems appropriate for what I want to discuss.

I've been friends with JustLis for about 20 years. I'm concerned about this discussion because when we nibbled around the edges of it in the Book Notes thread it was clear it could get pretty hot pretty quickly, and I'd like not to cause that. But I do want to discuss this. So here goes...

Hillary Clinton's new book, What Happened, has caused us to look at the presidential campaign and election of 2016 all over again. The book was released yesterday, September 12, and the commentariat have zoomed in on factors she cites as contributing to her loss. She admits to her own errors, but the pundits have focused on her citing Putin, Comey, and Sanders.

With respect to Sanders, she said that his attacks against her during the primary caused "lasting damage" and paved the way for "Trump's 'Crooked Hillary' campaign." Further, she said Sanders "had to resort to innuendo and impugning my character" because the two Democrats "agreed on so much." [Quotes from a CNN article] Since these quotes have become public, it's been open season on Sanders supporters in social media, and perhaps elsewhere.

Yesterday I joined a long discussion on Facebook, in which the thread parent began by saying Hillary's loss was all the fault of Sanders supporters who wouldn't support her. After several other posts from other people echoing his, I said that I, and almost all of my family and friends, had started out as Bernie supporters but supported (and voted for) Hillary once she had the nomination sewed up. I said I was unwilling to be blamed for Hillary's loss. Eventually one other poster joined me, saying much the same thing.

The other poster and I stayed calm and respectful. In return we were called Marxists, told to "go f yourselves," told we weren't really Democrats, told we were responsible for causing divisions in the party, then told we weren't welcome in the party.

I don't want to imply that all Hillary supporters are like these folks were, but I've seen an alarming number of people who identify as Hillary supporters saying similar things. And while there were, evidently, the so-called Bernie Bots or Bernie Boys, for all I know they were a half-dozen loud-mouth idiots making a lot of noise all over social media. I certainly never met a Bernie-or-bust voter during any part of the campaign. But I see Bernie supporters being accused of exactly that. It's as if those of us who had initially supported Bernie all refused to support Hillary once she became the nominee. 'Tain't so.

I frankly don't know how we're going to defeat Trump when we're busy accusing each other. And, frankly, I don't see the Bernie supporters accusing Hillary of anything. The accusations all seem to run one way. And I'm really tired of being at the pointy end of the stick.



Just a heads up that I am only responding to this first post from Robbie before reading through the rest of the thread.

First, Robbie, if our earlier discussion about this issue got "hot," I apologize. Sometimes I come across more strongly than I intend, but I was never angry with you. I just see the issue differently. I am truly sorry if I worded my posts too strongly.

With regard to the Facebook thread parent's assertion that Hillary's loss was "all the fault of Sanders supporters who wouldn't support her," I completely disagree. The Sanders supporters who stayed home on election day -- or voted for Trump in protest -- were ONE factor in her defeat. But I don't even think it was the deciding factor.

Like you, I voted for Bernie in the primary and Hillary in the general election. I don't see how you could be blamed for Hillary's loss because you DID vote for her in the general election.

As for the Hillary supporters who attacked you and the other poster, blech. I've been surprised by viciousness of people on Facebook who don't even mind openly using their names to go on the attack. These people give politics a bad name. Unfortunately, I have met a number of "Bernie-or-bust" people in local Dem politics. Some are pleasant enough, but most have been militant and impossible to work with. The local Dem party has been trying to bring people together, impressing on them that "revolution" just isn't going to happen, and policy changes work in small steps -- and that working together is going to be essential to that process. Nope. These militants are downright uneducable. I have about reached the point that I'd wish the local leadership would remind them that this is the DEMOCRATIC party headquarters, and Bernie is NOT a Democrat, so if you won't work with us, please just move along and establish your own Bernie headquarters. It is just THAT impossible to work with the strongest militants. Very sad....

But you're right that we to the left have GOT to find a way to work together if we're going to defeat the TRULY incompetent, dangerous people who hold federal office today.

*edit* to correct "Bernie supporters" to "Hillary supporters."

Last edited by JustLis, 9/15/2017, 1:48 pm


---
Lis

Just one voice.... Singing in the darkness....
9/15/2017, 12:23 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Musings


quote:

Bellelettres wrote:

I think the split in the party did hurt Hillary in the election (who can doubt it?), but Bernie's people had a legitimate complaint: The DNC did everything it could to favor Hillary in the primaries.



Belle, every time I see this argument from Bernie supporters, I feel a duty to remind them that Bernie was NOT a Democrat and never BECAME a Democrat. He was only USING the Democratic apparatus to try to get the nomination. He could have done it as an independent, as a democratic socialist, or via any number of third-party systems. But he chose the Democratic Party because it made things a whole lot easier for him.

But the fact is that the Democratic Party owed him nothing at all. They could have denied his inclusion on the ballot under the Democratic label, but they didn't. They could have banned his people from the platform committee, but they didn't. He received far more from the Democratic Party than they owed him, and it should be no surprise that they preferred the candidate who whole-heartedly declared herself a Democrat and had been working for the party for decades.

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Lis

Just one voice.... Singing in the darkness....
9/15/2017, 12:32 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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streamline2001 wrote:

There are folks I've known on-line and face-to-face who still won't talk to me because of this. One even suggested that I should have illegally registered and voted in Florida, even though my residence was in Vermont. I said that Uncle Pete don't swing that way. Another old friend, a Vermonter who's been a real life pal for over 30 years is so mad at me that it may be a very long time before we ever see each other again. That's too bad. I really mean it. I miss that friend a lot, but there's not much I can do.



And this is such an awful result of this election, Peter. Long-time friendships lost, family relationships torn apart.... I lost respect for a few friends, not because they supported Trump, but because of the flagrant racism they displayed -- and their pride in being racist. I simply don't need that in my life. My best friend from high school ended up on the Trump side, too, because someone lied to her about a Hillary position -- and when presented with all kinds of evidence to the contrary, she refused to believe the facts. She is a brilliant woman -- ten times as smart as me -- and can't see the truth, and that worries me more than angers me. But we've put politics on the shelf and just don't discuss it anymore; we focus on life issues where we have common ground.

I am very concerned about these stories, because even when Gingrich started the "us vs them" stuff and Republican obstructionism exacerbated it with Obama's election, politics still was just politics. But with Trump's election, now it has become personal. When it was just politics, there WERE still ways to connect with each other to find policy solutions. Now people are wounded and won't even talk to each other at all. And I don't know how we work through that.

---
Lis

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9/15/2017, 12:41 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Musings


quote:

bricklayer wrote:

I'm suffering from aggrievement fatigue. Trump appealed to the tens of millions of Americans, many of whom feel as though they were being victimized by political correctness, affirmative action, and reverse discrimination. Millions more feel as though they have been victimized by the government for myriad reasons, one of which is that many resent the accountability that the government is imposing on them There is plenty of blame and little personal responsibility in the public arena and that disturbs me. And it is not a partisan issue, in my opinion.

That is what bothers me in what I have seen and heard from Hillary about the election results n her book. She doesn't believe her mistakes, many of which she admits, were enough to have caused her loss. But she was the decision maker. She could have reacted differently to crises as they occurred which may well resulted in a different reaction in the electorate. She ultimately decided how to overcome the inevitable obstacles. The buck stops there.

I don't think the election was fair, but I don't think life is fair, but that unfairness is often the measure of a person, and on this point I think Hillary makes herself look like she comes up short when she engages in the blame game. She was confronted with one unfair attack after another but she was the final arbiter of how to react to those confrontations. I would much rather see her take full responsibility for the consequences of her decisions as to how to react rather than blame those who provided the obstacles. I think she missed a chance to turn the difficulties she faced into an opportunity. And she is now joining the ranks of the aggrieved. I hate to see it.

Sent from my iPad



Brick, if you haven't seen Hillary's interview with Rachel, I would encourage you to watch it. She did take responsibility for her errors, and she did note her mistake in not connecting with the mood of a lot of people (who were, themselves, doing a lot of blaming of other people for their lot, rather than taking responsibility for themselves -- Ironic, wouldn't you say?). But she is right that a number of people DID throw roadblocks into her campaign -- Comey, Russians, Trump and the lying brigade -- and it only seems fair for her to mention those, as well. She spent a lot of time in the interview talking about moving forward and trying to fix policy via the next two elections. She spent time reaching out to explain what we need to do, moving forward. I consider that using an opportunity, rather than just being aggrieved.

---
Lis

Just one voice.... Singing in the darkness....
9/15/2017, 12:55 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 


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