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shiftless2 Profile
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


quote:

CooterBrown44 wrote:

quote:

JustLis wrote:

Yes, government accounting is different from corporate accounting, because it's not as though government is selling a product to customers and can control costs and prices.

But no, they're not stealing the money.



Yes they are, because there are no "real" assets to back it up.



Those bonds are backed by the full faith and net worth of the US government - that's exactly the same as the US Treasury bills and bonds held by investors around the world.

Or are you stealing from the bank if you take out a loan that you can't pay back immediately? Or if you run up a balance on your credit card?
10/24/2017, 5:08 am Link to this post PM shiftless2
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


I probably didn't set out my examples very well.

You guys are believers in SS. I'm a damn Virgo lawyer that deals with reality, and the reality is that government has been robbing SS blind. There is no Trust, no lock box. The only way to make SS solvent is to raise taxes. Would the system have been solvent if they hadn't taken the money and added other things to it? I don't know. It certainly would be better than it is now.

It is ILLEGAL for a business to do what the government is doing. Same for a citizen.
10/24/2017, 9:44 am Link to this post PM CooterBrown44
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


First, it ain't illegal.

Secondly, there is a trust, a lock box if you prefer. But it's completely inadequate to meet the promised benefits.

But tell us what the gov't should have done with whatever surplus is in the trust. Stashed a bunch of bills under someone's mattress? Or invested it in some sort of interest bearing assets?

They did the latter (which is what any sane person would do) and, because of the nature of those obligations the only acceptable investments are government treasuries - so they loaned the money to the gov't by purchasing interest bearing treasuries.
10/24/2017, 11:20 am Link to this post PM shiftless2
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


Cooter.... Shiftless has this one right. Honest. The money isn't being stolen.

---
Lis

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10/24/2017, 4:04 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


Whatever you guys want to think. Somebody show me where that money can come from to prop up SS other than raising our taxes.

I'll wait.
10/24/2017, 10:38 pm Link to this post PM CooterBrown44
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


1. Eliminate the cap on income that is taxed for Social Security. That won't raise "our" taxes at all (unless we have someone here with earned income exceeding $127,200).

2. Congress orders the Treasury to sell more Treasury bonds to the public in order to get the funds to pay for what is being redeemed at the Treasury by the Social Security Trust Fund. That won't raise taxes at all; it is an investment made by willing participants.

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10/24/2017, 11:25 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


quote:

CooterBrown44 wrote:

Whatever you guys want to think. Somebody show me where that money can come from to prop up SS other than raising our taxes.

I'll wait.



cooter - that has nothing to do with the issue.

Think of a car loan where the payments should be $1,000 a month but all you've been paying is $500. Would you be surprised if, at the end of the term, there was still a balance outstanding on the loan? That's essentially what's going on here.

And people have this idea that, because they've been paying SS taxes that there is some sort of "individual" bank of their funds sitting there waiting for them - doesn't work that way. Current SS contributions come in and go straight back out in the form of benefits to current retirees. And SS has been paying out more in benefits than it's been receiving in contributions since 2010.
10/25/2017, 5:11 am Link to this post PM shiftless2
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


Bullshit. It has everything to do with the issue. All of that money has been spent, and the only way to bring it back is to raise taxes.

We can agree to disagree. I'm cool with that. I've discussed this over the years with a lot of people. It's nice that folks can trust government. I don't with this, because there is nothing for folks to base that trust on.
10/25/2017, 10:43 am Link to this post PM CooterBrown44
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


quote:

CooterBrown44 wrote:

Bullshit. It has everything to do with the issue. All of that money has been spent, and the only way to bring it back is to raise taxes.

We can agree to disagree. I'm cool with that. I've discussed this over the years with a lot of people. It's nice that folks can trust government. I don't with this, because there is nothing for folks to base that trust on.



The thing is, the money has been spent
on benefits
which is exactly where it should have gone. The problem is, they never collected enough in the first place (in addition to which it wasn't properly designed from the get go).

10/25/2017, 11:03 am Link to this post PM shiftless2
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


The money went into the general fund. No telling where it went. It WASN'T spent in SS in any way.
10/25/2017, 11:10 am Link to this post PM CooterBrown44
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


quote:

CooterBrown44 wrote:

The money went into the general fund. No telling where it went. It WASN'T spent in SS in any way.



cooter - I'm beginning to think I should never have written all those actuarial exams. After all, it appears that I didn't learn a thing in the process.

The money was spent on benefits. What wasn't spent on benefits was used to purchase interest bearing Treasury bonds (i.e., loaned to the government).

10/25/2017, 1:06 pm Link to this post PM shiftless2
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


quote:

CooterBrown44 wrote:

The money went into the general fund. No telling where it went. It WASN'T spent in SS in any way.



Cooter, you're dealing with two people who have degrees in economics.

How well would you take a non-lawyer trying to tell you what the law is?

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10/25/2017, 1:42 pm Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


quote:

Miz Robbie wrote:

quote:

CooterBrown44 wrote:

The money went into the general fund. No telling where it went. It WASN'T spent in SS in any way.



Cooter, you're dealing with two people who have degrees in economics.

How well would you take a non-lawyer trying to tell you what the law is?



I know what the law is. I taught Trusts. What the government is doing would be illegal in the real world. There is no "lock box" and no Trust. Economics has nothing to do with it. There is nothing to either draw interest as we know it or any kind of asset that could provide income. It's all based on the ability of the government to raise our taxes to pay for what they've stolen. Y'all can believe what floats your boats. I don't give a flying !@#$ in a CAT 5 hurricane.
10/25/2017, 6:33 pm Link to this post PM CooterBrown44
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


quote:

CooterBrown44 wrote:

Y'all can believe what floats your boats. I don't give a flying !@#$ in a CAT 5 hurricane.



Sorry I mentioned anything.


Last edited by Miz Robbie, 10/25/2017, 7:10 pm


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10/25/2017, 6:45 pm Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


Cooter.... Honest, Shiftless and I are not blindly trusting the government about this. I have some knowledge about the issue, and mine seems to match Shiftless's knowledge.

I don't think it would do any good to try to explain again. But if you don't trust government (and that's okay), could you please trust us?

emoticon

It just hurts my heart to see you so angry and upset about something that just isn't really happening.

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Lis

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10/25/2017, 7:22 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


I said that I was cool with agreeing to disagree, but I wasn't allowed to do that. Yes, I got angry. I have no more to say.
10/25/2017, 10:43 pm Link to this post PM CooterBrown44
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


I have no problem agreeing to disagree about something that is an opinion, Cooter.

I just have a great deal of difficulty agreeing to disagree about something that is fact. We could agree to disagree whether the sun rises in the west, but I'd rather reach an understanding about the fact that it rises in the east.

But it's not worth creating discomfort or anger, so I'll let it go, too.

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Lis

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10/25/2017, 11:50 pm Link to this post PM JustLis
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


As the saying goes, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but they are not entitled to their own facts.

10/26/2017, 5:40 am Link to this post PM shiftless2
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


The House just passed a budget that paves the way for a $1.5 TRILLION tax cut. Setting aside, for the moment, who the chief beneficiaries of a tax cut would be, why on earth does anyone think this country can afford to cut taxes?

We have hurricane cleanup, we have an opioid crisis, we have crumbling infrastructure, we're adding to our world-wide military commitments, we need to clean up our health care mess... we need MONEY! Why are we even considering reducing the amount available?

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10/26/2017, 2:57 pm Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Re: Economics 101: Trump-Style


I was encouraged by the vote was so close. They included the 401(k) reduction, didn't they? Was the state and local taxes deduction eliminated?
10/26/2017, 3:03 pm Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 


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