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Musings


Miz Robbie on 24 Feb 2013 at 2:14 PM

Feel free to muse aloud on any topic that is currently running around in your head.

---
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9/13/2017, 3:22 pm Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Re: Musings


I decided to bring this thread here from the old board because there is no other thread here that seems appropriate for what I want to discuss.

I've been friends with JustLis for about 20 years. I'm concerned about this discussion because when we nibbled around the edges of it in the Book Notes thread it was clear it could get pretty hot pretty quickly, and I'd like not to cause that. But I do want to discuss this. So here goes...

Hillary Clinton's new book, What Happened, has caused us to look at the presidential campaign and election of 2016 all over again. The book was released yesterday, September 12, and the commentariat have zoomed in on factors she cites as contributing to her loss. She admits to her own errors, but the pundits have focused on her citing Putin, Comey, and Sanders.

With respect to Sanders, she said that his attacks against her during the primary caused "lasting damage" and paved the way for "Trump's 'Crooked Hillary' campaign." Further, she said Sanders "had to resort to innuendo and impugning my character" because the two Democrats "agreed on so much." [Quotes from a CNN article] Since these quotes have become public, it's been open season on Sanders supporters in social media, and perhaps elsewhere.

Yesterday I joined a long discussion on Facebook, in which the thread parent began by saying Hillary's loss was all the fault of Sanders supporters who wouldn't support her. After several other posts from other people echoing his, I said that I, and almost all of my family and friends, had started out as Bernie supporters but supported (and voted for) Hillary once she had the nomination sewed up. I said I was unwilling to be blamed for Hillary's loss. Eventually one other poster joined me, saying much the same thing.

The other poster and I stayed calm and respectful. In return we were called Marxists, told to "go f yourselves," told we weren't really Democrats, told we were responsible for causing divisions in the party, then told we weren't welcome in the party.

I don't want to imply that all Hillary supporters are like these folks were, but I've seen an alarming number of people who identify as Hillary supporters saying similar things. And while there were, evidently, the so-called Bernie Bots or Bernie Boys, for all I know they were a half-dozen loud-mouth idiots making a lot of noise all over social media. I certainly never met a Bernie-or-bust voter during any part of the campaign. But I see Bernie supporters being accused of exactly that. It's as if those of us who had initially supported Bernie all refused to support Hillary once she became the nominee. 'Tain't so.

I frankly don't know how we're going to defeat Trump when we're busy accusing each other. And, frankly, I don't see the Bernie supporters accusing Hillary of anything. The accusations all seem to run one way. And I'm really tired of being at the pointy end of the stick.

Last edited by Miz Robbie, 9/13/2017, 3:51 pm


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9/13/2017, 3:48 pm Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Re: Musings


One reason this is ironical is the PUMA movement in 2008. The PUMA (Party Unity My Ass) were Hillary supporters who were indignant when the newcomer Barack Obama was getting the most votes in the primaries. They said the system was rigged in his favor, and they would vote for John McCain before they would vote for Obama. Here's an article comparing them to the Bernie people who refused to vote for Hillary.

[sign in to see URL]

I think the split in the party did hurt Hillary in the election (who can doubt it?), but Bernie's people had a legitimate complaint: The DNC did everything it could to favor Hillary in the primaries. Even recognizing that and loving Bernie, I supported Hillary from the beginning and all through the process because I thought she was more qualified than he was to get the Democratic agenda passed as President. I also thought it was time (way, way past time) for a woman president, so if I had found their qualifications equal, I would have been for her.
9/13/2017, 4:23 pm Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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Re: Musings


I won't even !@#$ about the way the primaries were run. My feeling was that the only way I was going to vote for HRC was if I was living in a swing state, which I was (Florida), up until August of '16. I even tried to find out if I could vote absentee in Florida, because my lease there didn't run out until the very end of September. Turns out that the answer is, you can't.

So I registered to vote in Vermont (where I'd moved back to), a state that was anything but in play last fall. I felt free to vote any way I cared to because HRC was going to (and indeed did) win here by a healthy 2-1 margin. Nope, I didn't vote for Trump, nor do I feel my write-in vote contributed in any way to his victory.

There are folks I've known on-line and face-to-face who still won't talk to me because of this. One even suggested that I should have illegally registered and voted in Florida, even though my residence was in Vermont. I said that Uncle Pete don't swing that way. Another old friend, a Vermonter who's been a real life pal for over 30 years is so mad at me that it may be a very long time before we ever see each other again. That's too bad. I really mean it. I miss that friend a lot, but there's not much I can do.

I don't want relive the the primaries and I sure as hell don't want to deconstruct the fall campaign either. I want to help my senator to get Medicare-for-All passed and then see what can be done to get progressive candidates elected in '18.

(Peter steps down off his soap box and pours himself a beer.)

---
Peter

"When it comes to humility, I'm the greatest." - Bullwinkle Moose
9/13/2017, 4:55 pm Link to this post PM streamline2001
 
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Re: Musings


I'm going to let you guys have at it, and keep my mouth shut.
9/13/2017, 6:41 pm Link to this post PM CooterBrown44
 
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Re: Musings


Why, Cooter? I'd really like others' views on this.

---
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9/13/2017, 6:50 pm Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Re: Musings


I think that all of you know that I have opinions on Hillary. I was about to say that if she hadn't married Bill, which is really her claim to fame, that she'd be stuck somewhere in Illinois. BUT, one of her very best friends from school was Carolyn Ellis Staton, who taught Law at Ole Miss and retired as the Provost. She could have wound up in Mississippi. [sign in to see URL] don't know. If she had gotten into politics here, maybe she would have been better prepared. Who knows?

[sign in to see URL]'ve said more than once that instead of running a good campaign, Hillary sat back and planned what she was going to wear at her Coronation. Twice. I thought that she always appeared to be aloof, which doesn't fit with middle America, which was who she had to fit with in order to win. She always sounded too programmed IMO, and couldn't get to people ex-temporarily. She just expected to win, and didn't really work.

I'm not a party person, and just have to assume that some of the Bernie folks just couldn't bring themselves to support Hillary for whatever reason. I kind of have to give them a round of applause for not being part of the party lemming train. Bernie has a couple of good ideas that the country isn't ready for yet. I applaud those who stick to principles. Some of you don't know that I voted for Carter once. I voted for Bush 41 twice, and Dole as a hand shake for a good man who deserved a round of applause. I haven't voted for a party nominee since, other than Libertarian a couple of times, Jimmy Buffett, and my ex-wife, who would make a hell of a President.
9/13/2017, 7:06 pm Link to this post PM CooterBrown44
 
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Re: Musings


I voted for Hillary. She was far from my favorite person running, but I recognized that she had a great deal of experience under her belt and had the connections to make a smooth transition from what I considered to be a very successful Obama White House. But more than anything else I cast my vote for the one person who was going to keep Trump from becoming POTUS because that guy was going to be (and is) a disaster.

Arizona had the potential to become a swing state. Sadly, that potential was never realized. I know a lot of people who "couldn't bring themselves" to vote for HRC, and I disagree with those people strongly. We're in a world of hurt for at least the next 3-1/2 years because of "her emails" and a whole lot of other claptrap that should never in a million years have mattered.
9/13/2017, 7:52 pm Link to this post PM Whatsupchuck
 
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Re: Musings


I voted for Hillary. I don't live in a swing state, but I also voted for her while holding my nose. Lesser of the evils.

Now I'm bitter and angry about how things have turned out since then. We are saddled with a president who has marginalized the majority of the public and given tacit permission to the crazies amongst his supporters to behave like delinquents. One of his sons declared that Democrats aren't "even people," and he has repeatedly behaved in a way that would have gotten me reprimanded for unprofessional conduct when I was working. My friends abroad ask me, what the hell has happened, and they are fearful about what trump may inflict on the world.
9/13/2017, 11:05 pm Link to this post PM Birdz
 
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Re: Musings


I am definitely not a Hillary backer. And my opinion of her is comparable to that of Cooter's. Her husband may have been the single greatest politician of the 20th centur. However, Hillary may just go down as one of the worst politicians of the 21st.

She was absolutely terrible at the retail politics required in states like Iowa and New Hampshire; ran weak media campaigns in the mega states like Florida; and in the most insane campaign mistake in history (the mistake that ultimately cost her the election) she simply forgot that the rust belt stretching from Pennsylvania to Wisconsin even existed.

But I did not vote against her based upon her lack of skills as a politician, or even because of the silliness
related to the e-mail nonsense. Rather, she lost my vote due to her policy positions, particularly those that were in conflict with areas of particular importance to me - foreign policy, international trade, energy and the environment where she doesn't begin to be strong enough in her support of progressive policy positions.

All of this being said, I am not going to say who I actually voted for other than to say three things. First, I did not vote for the moron who currently resides in the White House. This election will long be regarded as the biggest
electoral mistake in history.

Secondly, I am a political independent whose voting history includes both democrats and Republicans, one independent/ one Libertarian, and one write-in.

And finally my political philosophy does not lend itself well to the narrow structures of our two major parties. I am basically a pro-business, free trading fiscal and economic conservative who is moderate to flaming liberal on social issues/ progressive on foreign policy, and so militant on energy and the environment that I scare Democrats as well as Republicans. where do I stand as on civil rights for all citizens? my only response is to say that as a 19 year old international student at the University of Chicago during a spring break voter registration drive I spent two nights in a Mississippi jail for telling a morbidly obese redneck policeman to go !@#$ himself.

Last edited by GoHawk, 9/14/2017, 12:27 am


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------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yxq951CSa0
9/13/2017, 11:11 pm Link to this post PM GoHawk
 
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Re: Musings


Hawk, you write absolutely fascinating pieces. Thank you for this one.

OK, you've emboldened me to tell my one anti-Hillary reflection. Here goes...

Bernie came to Seattle twice, I think. My son, daughter-in-law, and I drove down (90 miles) to Seattle to see his first rally. A few months later he had a second. The first got 12,000-plus cheering people and I think the second was similar.

Hillary came to Seattle twice, too, I think. She went to very wealthy private homes in a rich Seattle suburb and held spendy fundraisers. I don't know of any rallies she held around here for the un-rich.

That told me a lot.

---
Robbie
9/14/2017, 12:48 am Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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Re: Musings


I forgot to mention that I voted for Rand Paul. I figure that Jimmy's chances have gone by the wayside, and my Ex has gotten to the point where she's not interested.
9/14/2017, 1:17 am Link to this post PM CooterBrown44
 
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Re: Musings


Robbie, Hillary's two trips to Seattle were indeed very telling. And those two trips also represented exactly two more trips than she made to the state of Wiscoonsin - a vital swing state - during the campaign. Not only did she totally ignore Wisconsin, she paid equally little attention to the other states in the belt extending from Pennsylvania to Wisconsin. A strongly blue region that went overwhelmingly for Barack Obama in the previous two elections, the rust belt gave all but one state (Illinois) to Trump in 2016. And did so by a razor thin margin. Any serious attention at all would most likely have changed the course of the entire election. But Hillary and her staff were simply too lazy and/or stupid to recognize the discontent that was brewing in the industrial Midwest.

---
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Long live the Free Territory of Trieste (1947 - 1954)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yxq951CSa0
9/14/2017, 4:57 am Link to this post PM GoHawk
 
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Re: Musings


I love all this 20/20 hindsight.
9/14/2017, 5:50 am Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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Re: Musings


I'm suffering from aggrievement fatigue. Trump appealed to the tens of millions of Americans, many of whom feel as though they were being victimized by political correctness, affirmative action, and reverse discrimination. Millions more feel as though they have been victimized by the government for myriad reasons, one of which is that many resent the accountability that the government is imposing on them There is plenty of blame and little personal responsibility in the public arena and that disturbs me. And it is not a partisan issue, in my opinion.

That is what bothers me in what I have seen and heard from Hillary about the election results n her book. She doesn't believe her mistakes, many of which she admits, were enough to have caused her loss. But she was the decision maker. She could have reacted differently to crises as they occurred which may well resulted in a different reaction in the electorate. She ultimately decided how to overcome the inevitable obstacles. The buck stops there.

I don't think the election was fair, but I don't think life is fair, but that unfairness is often the measure of a person, and on this point I think Hillary makes herself look like she comes up short when she engages in the blame game. She was confronted with one unfair attack after another but she was the final arbiter of how to react to those confrontations. I would much rather see her take full responsibility for the consequences of her decisions as to how to react rather than blame those who provided the obstacles. I think she missed a chance to turn the difficulties she faced into an opportunity. And she is now joining the ranks of the aggrieved. I hate to see it.

Sent from my iPad
9/14/2017, 6:02 am Link to this post PM bricklayer
 
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Brick, I don't mean this in an offensive way, but I think blaming Hillary for her election loss (which election, by the way, she won by 3 million votes) is like blaming Jesus for the crucifixion.

How could she have reacted to Comey's reopening of the e-mail investigation 11 days before the election that would have changed the damage that did? You may recall that people who had already voted for her were saying publicly that they regretted doing so, and Trump claimed for a time that they could change their vote. Hillary is not the only person who thinks the Comey decision was decisive.

Describing the things that happened to damage her campaign is not the same as blaming everybody but herself for her loss.
9/14/2017, 6:41 am Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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Re: Musings


IMO, Hillary was going to lose before Comey acted an idiot. She has no idea on how to run a campaign.
9/14/2017, 9:08 am Link to this post PM CooterBrown44
 
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Re: Musings


Hawk, I think you wrote in Jon Huntsman in 2016.
9/14/2017, 9:13 am Link to this post PM Bellelettres
 
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And this discussion is why I said, a few weeks back on the Book Notes thread, that I thought her publishing this book was ill-advised. Those already inclined to think favorably of Hillary will continue to do so. Those already disinclined will find new things with which they can find fault. And those in the middle are far more likely to be pulled along with the dislikers than with the likers.

I think she should have written this for her own catharsis, shared it will Bill and Chelsea, then put it in a bottom drawer someplace.

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9/14/2017, 9:32 am Link to this post PM Miz Robbie
 
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There's another way of looking at this, Robbie.

When Jon Krakauer wrote Into Thin Air, his account of the 1996 Mt. Everest disaster that killed 8 climbers - he was warned against writing about his experiences of that climb until he had been able to spend time processing the trauma he'd been through. This advice came from his editor.

Into Thin Air is a good book, but it is flawed by Krakauer's repeated lamentations that he could have dome more to help the other climbers and should have been more aware of the danger they were all in. As such, the book was cathartic for the author, a way for him to deal with what he had seen and heard, but it did weigh down the storyline quite frequently. His editor had cautioned him that this might happen, given that he took it upon himself to write about the incident when he was still so close to it.

I think that this may well be one way of looking at HRC's book. She never took any time after the campaign to think through what had happened, but immediately began writing this book. It may help her to deal with the horror she felt, but it may also well prove to distort the story she wants to tell.

---
Peter

"When it comes to humility, I'm the greatest." - Bullwinkle Moose
9/14/2017, 10:03 am Link to this post PM streamline2001
 


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